Blogging through the DVD slowly, Part I (with details this time)

Concerned Nazarenes Presents The Emerging Church

We see several pictures of spiritual practices from various religions going through what looks like a powerpoint presentation.

Beverly Turner, Ordained Elder/Evangelist

Introduction

Beverly and her husband who have joined a group of concerned Nazarenes because of emergent ideology which has divided and destroyed many Nazarene churches and is perverting theology being taught in the Nazarene colleges and seminary.* Among the theology that is perverted is the offering of classes on spiritual formation, which to her is “nothing more than monastic mysticism.” It is the fault of the university presidents for even allowing these classes being taught. She is upset that the professors are taking students to monasteries and partaking of the Catholic Eucharist and “other Catholic heathen practices.”** These are worship to another Jesus and another Spirit of what Paul warned the Corinthian church of.

Rev. Turner concludes, “This is Christ's church. We are his body. This is our watch. This is our day. The information that we will be sharing on this DVD is vital to every Nazarene. The future of the church of the Nazarene is at stake.” 3 minutes 25 seconds.

My Comments

*Which churches have been divided and destroyed by the emergent ideology? In a letter found on this website, she describes “a young man, that was once in the faith, and a graduate of theology in one of our academic institutions, that has been “drawn away” by emergent type theology. He is currently involved in an Emergent Church that is led by a homosexual pastor and promotes a promiscuous lifestyle (as do many emergent thinkers).” Of course, there are so many issues here that I need help understanding. Was this young man ever Nazarene? What was the theology exactly that drew him away? What is her definition of an “Emergent Church”? There is a lot to unpack here.

**I have serious doubts that Roman Catholics would let non-Catholics partake of the Eucharist. My understanding has always been that Catholics have had closed communion and are very particular to serving to outsiders, especially Protestants. I am also offended by the term “Catholic heathen practices”.

Why I have entered the conversation of "Concerned Nazarenes"

http://reformednazarene.wordpress.com/general-assembly-diary/

"I got a call from Tim who gave me a heads up. Apparently, someone on NazNet had implied that we were there at Jon Middendorf’s seminar with possible intentions for committing violence, which is why there were apparently some body guards there.
You know, I believe some NazNet people are very nice, and I have met them, and spoken with some of them. But others are totally irresponsible, and sadly, some of them are pastors. This person was reckless and irresponsible for implying that we are violent people, and he ought to be ashamed and ought to repent for this type of talk.

Anyone who even thinks we may be violent in any way, is sadly misinformed, and these folks are coming close to acting with slanderous intent. Perhaps the leadership had a right to be careful privately, but for someone on NazNet to suggest there could be violence, I believe is an veiled attempt to smear us.

The emergents on NazNet and the opposing Facebook group are besides themselves. However, what really upsets me, is the distortion, and sometimes outright lies that they have been saying on their blogs. It does a great disservice to those on their blogs, who are at least polite and respectful to us who oppose their theology. My answer to them mainly has been, wait a little while, the noise is going to get louder, from the many who are starting to openly voice their disapproval of unbliblical teachings and practices.

Since they will read this eventually, I give them a warning now. We do not fear them at all, but they themselves need to fear the wrath of God. They are playing a game of defiance with the Almighty God, and the consequences will be deadly for them. Please pray for their repentance, brothers and sisters, that they will ask the lord for forgiveness for doubting His Word; for worshipping the idols of man-made prayer techniques; for doubting God’s sovereignty; for believing that God can make mistakes and learn from them; for teaching youth heretical beliefs on our universities, at the peril of their very souls. In the words of Dr. Diehl, “Oh God give us a Holy Ghost revival”…. “so that we can win souls for Jesus.”"

Yep, I'm that someone from NazNet. You can peruse the blog site to know that is not what I said, but I am the one who brought up the violence thing. Why? Because it was real. The security told me it was a real threat. If stating what I was told is smearing and slander (I think he means libel), than is there any real way to move forward in this... whatever it is?

Why did I enter the conversation officially? Because snipers can pick people off one at a time, but when people stand together, a sniper rifle is no longer fully effective. To get their point across, they would have to switch weapons. If they used them, everyone would see the evil and uglines of what they are doing.

The CN's have been sniping leaders of the Church of the Nazarene one at a time... or at least they have been attempting to. They have taken shots at several professors at several universities because, well, what you can read above. They have attacked pastors, who beyond all the pressures of trying to help their congregations, now have to answer for asking people to pray in meditative type ways.

A poem by Martin Niemöller who was taken into a concentration camp by Nazis:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

Then they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
I did not protest;
I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me.

This is where my fear is with the CN group. I really believe they are trying to accomplish God's will, but they have a take no captives approach. If I do not agree with them completely, I am a heretic. The same goes for you. Does this really sound like Jesus to you? Whether or not you are friendly with emerging church thought or postmodernity, is it ever right to convert or condemn based purely on what we believe?

On another forum, I have been told:

*that I want to kick anyone that does not agree with me out of the church,

*that I do not believe these guys and gals are trying to serve God, and

*that I am launching vicious attacks. I have had to step back and look at what I have done and said.

I have asked others who are both near and far to the situation their perspective. I have prayed to Jesus.

My answer is:

*that if I wanted to really kick out anyone that does not agree with me, I would not be in the church either. There are times I do not always agree with myself.

*I do believe the CN's are trying to serve God. I don't roll my eyes to their concerns. I was once someone who believed similarly to them. Depending how you read Acts, so was the Apostle Paul. I just disagree that what they are doing accomplishes their goal. Jesus said that our righteousness is to succeed that of even the Pharisees. This implies that the Pharisees were trying to serve God. It's just that we believe they were off a bit. But that bit was too much.

*If this is a vicious attack of merely reporting what I saw and was told... at worst, how is it any different than what they are doing? Taken as mirroring, I would be playing by the same rules they are playing. But I am not. I have heard many positive things about Manny specifically. In the same way he thinks that I am misguided, I believe he is misguided.

The difference is what he wrote above and what I have been writing. I do not wish any ill will towards Manny or the CN group. I am sure they beg to differ, but I don't. At the same time, there are thousands of Nazarenes who have no idea what is going on and here that so-and-so is a heretic and that emerging/postmodern is heresy and so forth.

Several people, about 50, have thanked me for mentioning what happened on Thursday at General Assembly. Several more have asked what is going on. That is why I am compelled to enter in this conversation, and it makes my stomach churn.

Peace.

The Infamous DVD, pt 1

Well, first thing I want to mention is how hard it was for me to find anyone distributing the "Emerging Church" dvd put out by the "Concerned Nazarenes." Supposedly, 1000's were being handed out, but someone voluntarily gave me theirs last night (Wednesday).

When I got back to my hotel, I watched the first 2 hours. Then, this morning (Thursday), I watched the final 45 minutes.

It was extremely grating. My wife fell asleep after 30 minutes. She likes boring documentaries so....

Okay, I will be more serious in addressing this dvd.

The movie (?) begins with ordained elder Bev Turner of the Church of the Nazarene telling us that she is concerned about the emerging church and its influence on the Church of the Nazarene (CotN). We are not told where she pastors.

We are then introduced to a very rough looking guy (please do not make me remember names, I will NOT watch this again) introducing himself as the host for the dvd (never mentioning his connection with the CotN). His first interviewee is Dr. Gary Gilley, pastor of an independant church who blasts all things emerging because of the lack of roots in church history and tradition. The irony is thick here - an independant church blasting someone else, anyone else, for the lack of roots in church tradition and history.

Dr. Gilley is an author of books of dispensational thought and spends much of the time bashing Brian McLaren, the supposed leader of the emerging church. Gilley mentions many times that the emerging church (ec) refuses to listen to others when they are wrong, but never concedes the possibility that he could listen to them if he was wrong.

Another talking point is that the ec is only focused on experiences and that experience is not very important. This is especially humorous since the DVD is targeted at a church that has the root of its tradition in experiential expressive ways. Yes, the Pentecostal Church of the Nazarene relied a lot on experience in its hey-day and is known for people "being blessed", "running the pews", and "experiencing sanctification" because their "heart was strangely warmed." Nope, no experience here... Oh yeah, not once in this whole interview is the CotN mentioned.

In between sessions, there is a clip from McLaren and no critique from the producers. I am sure they think that what is being posted is proof of his heresy, but honestly it made me feel more comforted that there is hope yet.

The second interview is with Ray Yungen. He is also an author of books, but not a Nazarene. Ray was a little bit better of an interview, but not by much. Ray's big problem are things like prayer stations, labyrinths, lectio divina, and the like. To him, these are all pagan, non-biblical practices. This is a big concern as we are not to bring in non-biblical things like spiritual formation into the church. My response is then how do we account for why we celebrate Christmas and Easter on the particular days that we do? Are these completely free from the secular paganism? Or do the people putting out the dvd not celebrate these days? I mean, it isn't like the word Christmas is in the Bible.

The inbetween was a clip of Oprah where one of her guests argues with her about Jesus being God. Oprah makes it very clear that she is not a Christian by what she says. This clip is juxtaposed with another where a lady asks Oprah how she can believe as a Christian while also believing that everyone can believe whatever they want. Oprah's response was that a preacher once said that God was a jealous God. This concerned Oprah because she did not know why God would be jealous "of" her. She believed that God loved her and that God was in all things, so how could God be jealous of her?

I honestly have never met of the ec who would agree with Oprah in this situation. I don't know of any postmodern who would agree with her. I'm sure there is somoene somewhere. Those of us who are or are friendly with emerging/postmodern agree that Oprah is wrong.


The third interview was my favorite. It was a lady who was formerly of the New Age movement turned Christian. She conflicted with Gilley about experience saying that she seeks to truly experience God and that is what all believers are to do. This made the host twitch in his seat. Mostly she talked about the occult and New Age. The host tried to imply that this was synonomous with what those in the ec espoused, but that is a pretty big stretch.

More to come once I've had sleep.

Peace.

Thoughts on the "Concerned Nazarenes" & Those Who They Crucify... er, Oppose

http://reformednazarene.wordpress.com/general-assembly-diary/

That is the address for the diary of Mr. Manny Silva, a Reformed and Concerned Nazarene. He and I attended the same meeting this morning at 9am to hear Jon and Scott. Interestingly, though not surprisingly, we heard completely different things. I am going to break down his diary about the session. I will be cutting and pasting, but the above link has his whole entry, so no one accuses me of misquoting or taking out of context.

"General Assembly Day 2: Thursday, June 25

...We then set out for the seminar held by Jon Middendorf and Scott Daniels, called The Church (of the Nazarene) for An Emerging Culture. John, Pastor Joe, and I, sat right near the front with Concerned Nazarene shirts on! I know they were already expecting us. We sat a took some notes, but really, it was the same old, same old emerging talk that got nowhere. “Let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater” was repeated several times. Fundamentalists and conservatives were disparaged again. And of course, the usual re-writing of Wesleyan history again. A defense was made of Brian Mclaren, Thomas Merton, Richard Foster, and other mystics! It was an embarrassment to hear all this, but of course, they were mostly preaching to the choir, hence the many “amens”."

It is true, they sat near the front with their Concerned Nazarene shirts on. Yeah, they were expecting them. There were at least 3 security guards who were hovering in the room because apparently there were some threats of physical harm against the speakers. To be fair, it probably "was the same old, same old emerging talk that got nowhere." The talk was meant to be an introduction for several people who have heard the terms "emerging" or "emergent" without a lot of understanding. Unfortunately, the baby/bathwater phrase was mentioned a total of 2 times. So I guess several must be subjective. As someone who considers himself a theological conservative, I was not very disparaged. Wesleyan history re-writing? Maybe, but only if you have never studied Wesleyan history. The defense that is referred to is when Scott mentioned that he refuses to play the game of judging every single person by the worst of what they say/believe. He said that if everyone played that game, there would be no person left with credibility. Yeah, a majority of the people who were there were sympathizers. Over the course of these heretic accusations, the guys needed support. I said "Amen" out loud the most. I sat a few seats away from "the Concerned."

GS Jesse Middendorf was there to support his son. With 5 minutes left, we realized there would be no formal Q&A time. Pastor Joe had been primed for an inerrancy type question, I was going to tackle spiritual formation. But Scott asked someone to close in prayer, and then would take questions after, but at the front one on one. But right after the prayer, Pastor Joe stood up, addressed Dr. Middendorf directly, and asked “since the emergents were getting a forum to speak here, why are not concerned Nazarenes being allowed to get a forum, and will we be allowed a forum?” The answer…. “That’s not likely”.

Bad Jesse! How dare you support your son? *GASP* 5 minutes left? Hmmm... that's funny... the session was to end at 10am, and it was 10:15 before Jon, not Scott, asked someone to close in prayer. There was no promise to take questions afterward, though they did say they would stick around and talk. Pastor Joe did stand up right after the prayer and asked Dr. Middendorf if those of the Concerned Nazarenes would get a chance to respond to these heretical resonances of Jon and Scott sometime during General Assembly. Jesse stood up (he was directly in front of me) and was about to speak when David Felter (GA Coordinator) moved in and explained politely that the events for GA were already planned and that they were more than welcome to put up websites to respond. Pastor Joe did not like this and said that it was not fair. David said that it was not fair to think they could just come in and schedule whatever they wanted within the GA.

After the presentation, there was great concern about the Concerned Nazarenes that they might act in violence. Security hovered around Jon and Scott as Pastor Joe was very abrasive in whomever he was talking to at the time. I really don't know how Pastor Joe and Manny expected Jon to act when they confronted him as they have labeled him a heretic and even feature him on their 2 hr 45 min snoozefest of a dvd as a deceiver.

That is the only answer we got from a General Superintendent of our denomination, my friends. “That’s not likely”. In other words, we will not likely get the opportunity to express our concerns. We are apparently being told to be quiet. I hope I am wrong, and we pray for an opportunity. This, after Scott Daniels had just finished stating that our church is a big tent that accommodates many different views. Thank you, Dr. Middendorf, for your concern. I will leave you to think of the implications of that response.

Maybe Jesse talked to Manny afterwards, but he did not say these words in the session or after the prayer. Again, I was standing right next to him. If they really believe they have not had the opportunity to express their concerns, I do not know what they expect. Did they contact the organizers of Genereal Assembly before last June to express they wanted to confront the emerging heresies? My guess is no as they have yet to refer to this, but that is my guess.

I think it needs to be restated that there was no promise of a question/answer time. Jon and Scott were asked to present. They did not ask to present. Manny and Co. (sounds like a great name for a tv show) were never asked to present despite asking if they could present. Is that fair? Taken in isolation, probably not. Taken within the witch hunts these guys have participated in over the past year in particular, they honestly should be glad that they are not in jail for libel and maybe a tad bit of slander.

I will post about the dvd they made in another post.

Peace.

Ollie & Me